[Deep Thoughts] Nice Guy Responds
Jul. 21st, 2005 04:38 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
trooper6There seems to be quite a bit of discussion about the Nice Guys Finish Last meme.
See for example:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/divalion/163615.html
There has long been that meme out there that lots of women won't date Nice Guys, rather they like to date assholes. This meme is being fought against now by some folks online. Their point? No, actually, you are an asshole too.
The main point is that "Nice Guys" aren't nice, they are controlling, entitled, misogynist jerks who just hide under the guise of "Niceness." divalion goes so far as to say that the real nice guys don't know they are nice guys...anyone who says they are a nice guy, generally isn't. The argument is also sort of set up so that one can't really dispute it without throwing oneself into the "jerk" category.
After Bitch, PhD posted about this too (http://bitchphd.blogspot.com/2005/07/nice-guys-and-bitchy-women.html), I thought...well,
I consider myself I nice person. A good, kind and nice person. Generally this has not resulted in me missing out on relationships. I have a couple of times though. Once, I went out on a date with a woman and at the end of the date she said, "You're very nice, but I like to date assholes, sorry." I said, "Okay." We'd only had one date, and I think she was looking for a particular macho type that wasn't me. I thought it was a funny/sad thing, buy hey, whatever works for her...she has the right to exclude people from her dating pool based on whatever criteria she wants (just like I won't date Republicans).
Second situation. I was dating a woman for a few months. Having a great time. She was particularly wild/rockstar. I think I come off as fairly boy scout...and I am (no drugs, very light drinker, I don't curse, I'm polite, etc)...but I like to think I've got a bit of the James Dean in me, and I also think people can do whatever they want. I remember that at that time she was partying really hard and sleeping around--which is cool. I've been in lots of non-monogamous relationships, and I also don't feel the need to be hanging out with the person I'm dating all the time. Some mutual friends figured that she was treating me badly...that she was the bitch and I was the poor abused nice guy. She ended up internalizing this and broke up with me saying that she wasn't the type to date nice people. Not much you can do when someone breaks up with you...but it was frustrating because I didn't feel like I was treated badly at all. I was fine with the relationship. She was out a lot, which gave me time to work on all the stuff I had going on, hang with buddies, etc.--yet we also had great times together--casual, very nice. Well, I got the nice guy dump anyway. We're still very good friends, and she has since apologized and told me that she broke up with me because she generally had been in a pattern of messed up relationships with messed up assholes, and that dating me (a person who wasn't an asshole) got her all nervous, she got all of her commitment fears up and she had to run--plus stress from pals. Which means, yeah, it was probably a good thing she dumped me!
This sort of thing has happened to me...hm...maybe three times? I have been dumped/rejected for being a nice guy...which some people think is synonymous with boring. And I have met a number of women who really do tend to date jerks and reject nice guys/girs...just like I've met a number of men who really do tend to date jerks and reject nice guys/girls. Luckily for me, in the vast majority of my relationships I've not had to deal with that. Far more pressing for me is not watching out for the folks who won't date me because I'm nice (I have respect for folks for being up front), but those folks who date me because I'm nice and want to take advantage of that. I've had a lot of more of those folks than I have had the other. (Which then, ironically, causes my female friends to lament, "why do nice guys always date bitches?"). But I tend to get out of relationships like that once I realize what's going on...so I don't get too bothered by that either.
I think the main issue is not that people don't date Nice Guys/Girls, but rather that there are a lot of folks (male and female) who are more attracted to the "Dangerous Loner," type. Dangerous Loners are mysterious and exciting. Dangerous Loners open up to no one...but you. Being on the inside of the Dangerous Loner can make one feel all special. Dangerous Loners are also often broken and there are folks who love to fix broken people. Dangerous Loners are also often jerks. It is all over our society and media as a romanticized relationship. Dangerous == Sexy. Nice == Boring.
In Grease, Sandy had to transform from the nice (boring) Sandra Dee to the Dangerous Sexy leather clad Sandy. The film valorizes Danny (who treats Sandy like a jerk for most of the movie) over boring jock boy played by Lorenzo Lamas. Grease 2 is the same with the genders reversed. Michael the nice guy would never catch the eye of Pink Lady Stephanie...he had to transform himself into the Cool Rider...the mysterious motorcycle badass.
Gosh it is the entire point of the song "Leader of the Pack!" (They said he was bad, but I knew he was sad, that's why I fell for the Leader of the Pack)
All these Bad Boy/Bad Girl/Dangerous Loner Jerks of any gender are the ones we valorize...and I think a lot of people internalize those messages and that manifests in dating a whole string of jerks (of any gender). I think this tends to happen when people are younger and finding themselves...and tend to think people get tired of their dangerous loners and start dating nice people...but there is a whole time period where the nice guys/girls look around and notice they are getting passed over for people more "exciting." I think that is where that meme comes from.
In the end, it all works out and dangerous loners remain...well, dangerous and alone...while nice folks hook up. And I've been fortunate to have my dating history filled with few dangerous loners (jerks), and I've been rejected/dumped rarely for not being a dangerous loner. Most of my relationships have just been grand.
So yeah, I think there are bunches of folks who pass up nice people for jerky people. I don't think saying so automatically makes me a jerk. And I don't think it is productive to propagate a way of thinking that basically casts all but the smallest number of guys as jerks. (i.e. the asshole guys are jerks, and most nice guys are jerks too). I don't think most people, male or female, are jerks. I think most folks are good and kind, both male and female...at least my dating/friendship history has bourne that out.
See for example:
http://www.livejournal.com/users/divalion/163615.html
There has long been that meme out there that lots of women won't date Nice Guys, rather they like to date assholes. This meme is being fought against now by some folks online. Their point? No, actually, you are an asshole too.
The main point is that "Nice Guys" aren't nice, they are controlling, entitled, misogynist jerks who just hide under the guise of "Niceness." divalion goes so far as to say that the real nice guys don't know they are nice guys...anyone who says they are a nice guy, generally isn't. The argument is also sort of set up so that one can't really dispute it without throwing oneself into the "jerk" category.
After Bitch, PhD posted about this too (http://bitchphd.blogspot.com/2005/07/nice-guys-and-bitchy-women.html), I thought...well,
I consider myself I nice person. A good, kind and nice person. Generally this has not resulted in me missing out on relationships. I have a couple of times though. Once, I went out on a date with a woman and at the end of the date she said, "You're very nice, but I like to date assholes, sorry." I said, "Okay." We'd only had one date, and I think she was looking for a particular macho type that wasn't me. I thought it was a funny/sad thing, buy hey, whatever works for her...she has the right to exclude people from her dating pool based on whatever criteria she wants (just like I won't date Republicans).
Second situation. I was dating a woman for a few months. Having a great time. She was particularly wild/rockstar. I think I come off as fairly boy scout...and I am (no drugs, very light drinker, I don't curse, I'm polite, etc)...but I like to think I've got a bit of the James Dean in me, and I also think people can do whatever they want. I remember that at that time she was partying really hard and sleeping around--which is cool. I've been in lots of non-monogamous relationships, and I also don't feel the need to be hanging out with the person I'm dating all the time. Some mutual friends figured that she was treating me badly...that she was the bitch and I was the poor abused nice guy. She ended up internalizing this and broke up with me saying that she wasn't the type to date nice people. Not much you can do when someone breaks up with you...but it was frustrating because I didn't feel like I was treated badly at all. I was fine with the relationship. She was out a lot, which gave me time to work on all the stuff I had going on, hang with buddies, etc.--yet we also had great times together--casual, very nice. Well, I got the nice guy dump anyway. We're still very good friends, and she has since apologized and told me that she broke up with me because she generally had been in a pattern of messed up relationships with messed up assholes, and that dating me (a person who wasn't an asshole) got her all nervous, she got all of her commitment fears up and she had to run--plus stress from pals. Which means, yeah, it was probably a good thing she dumped me!
This sort of thing has happened to me...hm...maybe three times? I have been dumped/rejected for being a nice guy...which some people think is synonymous with boring. And I have met a number of women who really do tend to date jerks and reject nice guys/girs...just like I've met a number of men who really do tend to date jerks and reject nice guys/girls. Luckily for me, in the vast majority of my relationships I've not had to deal with that. Far more pressing for me is not watching out for the folks who won't date me because I'm nice (I have respect for folks for being up front), but those folks who date me because I'm nice and want to take advantage of that. I've had a lot of more of those folks than I have had the other. (Which then, ironically, causes my female friends to lament, "why do nice guys always date bitches?"). But I tend to get out of relationships like that once I realize what's going on...so I don't get too bothered by that either.
I think the main issue is not that people don't date Nice Guys/Girls, but rather that there are a lot of folks (male and female) who are more attracted to the "Dangerous Loner," type. Dangerous Loners are mysterious and exciting. Dangerous Loners open up to no one...but you. Being on the inside of the Dangerous Loner can make one feel all special. Dangerous Loners are also often broken and there are folks who love to fix broken people. Dangerous Loners are also often jerks. It is all over our society and media as a romanticized relationship. Dangerous == Sexy. Nice == Boring.
In Grease, Sandy had to transform from the nice (boring) Sandra Dee to the Dangerous Sexy leather clad Sandy. The film valorizes Danny (who treats Sandy like a jerk for most of the movie) over boring jock boy played by Lorenzo Lamas. Grease 2 is the same with the genders reversed. Michael the nice guy would never catch the eye of Pink Lady Stephanie...he had to transform himself into the Cool Rider...the mysterious motorcycle badass.
Gosh it is the entire point of the song "Leader of the Pack!" (They said he was bad, but I knew he was sad, that's why I fell for the Leader of the Pack)
All these Bad Boy/Bad Girl/Dangerous Loner Jerks of any gender are the ones we valorize...and I think a lot of people internalize those messages and that manifests in dating a whole string of jerks (of any gender). I think this tends to happen when people are younger and finding themselves...and tend to think people get tired of their dangerous loners and start dating nice people...but there is a whole time period where the nice guys/girls look around and notice they are getting passed over for people more "exciting." I think that is where that meme comes from.
In the end, it all works out and dangerous loners remain...well, dangerous and alone...while nice folks hook up. And I've been fortunate to have my dating history filled with few dangerous loners (jerks), and I've been rejected/dumped rarely for not being a dangerous loner. Most of my relationships have just been grand.
So yeah, I think there are bunches of folks who pass up nice people for jerky people. I don't think saying so automatically makes me a jerk. And I don't think it is productive to propagate a way of thinking that basically casts all but the smallest number of guys as jerks. (i.e. the asshole guys are jerks, and most nice guys are jerks too). I don't think most people, male or female, are jerks. I think most folks are good and kind, both male and female...at least my dating/friendship history has bourne that out.
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no subject
Date: 2005-07-22 12:05 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-22 12:11 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-22 08:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-07-22 08:30 pm (UTC)I wouldn't want Sandy to change who she was just because she thought that I'd like her better because of it. That seems all sorts of unhealthy. Sandy was pretty cool. She danced up a storm at the dance contest...she and Danny would have won if not for the sabotage where Cha-Cha from St. Bernadette's cut in.
So, Sandy--a nice person, who dances well, is funny, charming and sincere? Doesn't play weird games? Vs. a Leather clad Bad Girl who is behaving in a false way...including internalizing the idea that the way to a man's heart is to treat him sort of badly and promise sex for affection? No contest...Sandra Dee all the way.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-22 08:36 pm (UTC)So even if she were all leather clad and it weren't an act...I think I'd probably still go for Sandy.